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The Green Light: Attorney Philippe Sands Follows the Bush Administration Torture TrailDemocracy Now! | The Green Light: Attorney Philippe Sands Follows the Bush Administration Torture Trail
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The Green Light: Attorney Philippe Sands Follows the Bush Administration Torture Trail
A new exposé in Vanity Fair by British attorney Philippe Sands reveals new details about how attorney John Yoo and other high-ranking administration lawyers helped design and implement the interrogation policies seen at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and secret CIA prisons.
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Sands joins us in our firehouse studio. [includes rush transcript]
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Philippe Sands, international lawyer at the firm Matrix Chambers and a professor at University College London.His article "The Green Light" appears in the new issue of Vanity Fair.He is the author of the forthcoming book The Torture Team: Rumsfeld's Memo and the Betrayal of American Values.His last book was titled Lawless World: America and the Making and Breaking of Global Rules.
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"The Green Light" by Philippe Sands
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Meanwhile, the British attorney Philippe Sands has just published an article in Vanity Fair exposing new details about how Yoo and other high-ranking administration attorneys helped design and implement the interrogation policies seen at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and secret CIA prisons.
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Sands argues the actions of these lawyers might have amounted to war crimes and could result in their prosecution overseas.
Philippe Sands joins us in the firehouse studio, international lawyer at the firm Matrix Chambers and a professor at University College London.He is the author of the forthcoming book The Torture Team: Rumsfeld's Memo and The Betrayal of American Values.His last book was called Lawless World: America and the Making and Breaking of Global Rules.
Welcome to Democracy Now!
PHILIPPE SANDS: Very nice to be with you, Amy.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, I adopted a different approach from the last book: I didn't deal with documents; I dealt with people.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, I think that the administration's narrative has always been they really didn't authorize these things; what happened was it started on the ground at Guantanamo, they faced a situation with individuals who they thought presented a threat to US security, and from the ground, from the people at Guantanamo, new security, new interrogation measures were requested.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, he was basically their gopher.I don't think he was the driving force.I don't think he was the intellectual brains pushing pressure on people down at Guantanamo.That came from the more senior lawyers.But he was the convenient ideologue, if you like, who was there able to sign on the dotted line and authorize things that others certainly would not have authorized.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, I think the starting memo-there are two memos on the 1st of August, 2002.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Yeah.It's become a very famous, or infamous, memo.It's the one where he writes at the bottom, "Why is standing limited to four hours?I stand for eight to ten hours a day."And he approves fifteen techniques of interrogation and then leaves open three other techniques, including waterboarding.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, I've spoken for the first time, or at least people I've spoken with have for the first time now become publicly identified as closely involved.
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AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Philippe Sands.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: I can.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Diane Beaver no longer feels able to watch 24.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, I had a rather curious day.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: It's a really important point.I mean, I'm a lawyer.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: I can talk to him.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, he was Under Secretary of Defense in charge of policy.So here I am talking to the guy who's responsible for US policy on treatment of detainees.And I put it to him, "Did it never occur to you that by opening the door to this type of interrogation, you would expose American soldiers or Americans to the same sort of treatment?"And he really just didn't-he basically said, "We never really thought through all of these issues."
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, if he had a role-and it's pretty sure or clear that he did, because he's-the famous dunk in the water quotation, he's got no objection to waterboarding, it seems, if it's going to produce results under certain circumstances.
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AMY GOODMAN: Philippe Sands, the memo that came out this week that endorsed assault, maiming, even administering mind-altering drugs, the document suggests US interrogators would be immune from prosecution for any crime because of the President's wartime authority.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, that argument is complete rubbish.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: I think it's a real possibility.The judge and the prosecutor have asked me for all of my materials.
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PHILIPPE SANDS: Well, this is a delicate issue.
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AMY GOODMAN: Philippe Sands, I want to thank you very much for being with us.